龚鹏程x维格夫｜要提高“说“和“听”在教育中的地位

龚鹏程对话海外学者第九十五期：在后现代情境中，被技术统治的人类社会，只有强化交谈、重建沟通伦理，才能获得文化新生的力量Miniswap。这不是谁的理论，而是每个人都应实践的活动。龚鹏程先生遊走世界，并曾主持过“世界汉学研究中心”。我们会陆续推出“龚鹏程对话海外学者”系列文章，请他对话一些学界有意义的灵魂。范围不局限于汉学，会涉及多种学科。以期深山长谷之水，四面而出。

鲁伯特·维格夫教授（Professor Rupert Wegerif）

剑桥大学教育学教授，互联网对话式教育理论创始人Miniswap。

龚鹏程教授：您好Miniswap。您以对话式教育著称。这种教育，确实对互联网时代具有特殊意义，但这种教育是否只能是补充或调节？例如在学生进入“对话式转换”之前，是不是应该先有一套知识或观点，接着才能了解不同观点，以扩大对话空间？其次，无限制的知识视野，固然在互联网上不难驰骋，可是教育一定有具体的课时课程限制，不可能任由学生神游。

鲁伯特·维格夫教授：龚教授您好！感谢您提出的第一个有趣而富有挑战性的问题Miniswap。事实上，对话式教育一直旨在涵盖由教师或其他人对现有知识的指导。当我第一次在英国学习教育时，"以儿童为中心"的建构主义方法很受欢迎。对话式教育不是 "以儿童为中心"。它旨在与以儿童为中心的方法形成对比。但同时，它也不是 "以教师为中心 "或 "以课程为中心"，而是介于这两个极端之间的平衡立场。让我进一步解释：

知识不是固定的和最终的，而是作为对话的一部分一直在被质疑和发展Miniswap。这种对话，比如说科学的对话，我称之为"文化的长期对话"。对学生来说，获得 "知识 "意味着参与这种对话。对于一个学生来说，要知道达尔文的进化论意味着什么，仅仅重复所学的短语是不够的，他们需要知道达尔文所反对的其他观点。

例如，他们还需要了解拉马克的另一种错误理论，即生物体在一生中的变化会传递给后代Miniswap。掌握了某种知识，就能参与有关它的辩论，并从不同角度解释它。

生物学的对话继续增长，最近的研究发现，生物体一生中的一些变化实际上是通过表观遗传机制传递给后代的Miniswap。

事实证明，拉马克并非完全错误，达尔文也并非完全正确Miniswap。我们认为我们在科学上知道一些事情，但事实上我们只知道我们所问问题的答案。当我们学会提出更好的问题时，我们可能会得到不同的、更好的答案。

展开全文

我在这里要说的是，知识和对话并不是真正分开的Miniswap。为了学习知识，学生需要学习如何提问和参与关于知识的对话。

教育意味着将学生引入长期的文化对话中，如科学和历史Miniswap。这涉及到教授"知识"，但知识不应该作为固定的最终事实来教授，而应该以过去在背景中所说的理由的形式来教授。

引导儿童参与长期文化对话的最佳方式通常，但并不总是，通过对话Miniswap。如果首先刺激儿童提出问题，相互质疑，并在小组中相互解释，那么他们就会更容易理解所教的知识。如果以这种方式进行教学，他们有一天将能够质疑和改进知识，从而为创新和成长作出贡献。

虽然不应该让孩子们去流浪，但我认为，有了互联网的资源，现在有更多的空间让孩子走不同的学习道路Miniswap。

父母和社会呼吁儿童参与有关知识的教育对话，但这是一个双向的过程Miniswap。为了使学习发生，儿童和学生需要被激励和参与。社会需要很多不同类型的专家，儿童自然希望对他们周围的社会有用。

一方面，我们不能让学生自由地学习他们想要的东西，但另一方面，我们也不应该在他们16岁或18岁之前告诉他们必须学习什么，即使在英国，现有的大部分课程对他们和社会都没有明显的作用Miniswap。在这两个极端之间进行某种对话是可能的。

我们需要教孩子们如何合理地与他人相处，如何很好地交谈，以便他们能够向他人学习，如何与数字打交道，如何阅读，但在小学教完这些基本知识后，在我看来，可能有许多不同的人生成功之路，应该得到支持和鼓励Miniswap。

Thank you for your interesting and challenging first question. In fact dialogic education has always been intended to include guidance by teachers or others into existing knowledge. When I first studied education in the UK a 'child-centred' constructivist approach was popular. Dialogic education is not 'child-centred'. It is intended as a contrast to child-centred approaches. But at the same time it is not 'teacher-centred' or 'curriculum-centred' but a balanced position between these two extremes. Let me explain further:

Knowledge is not fixed and final but is always being questioned and developed as part of a dialogue. This kind of dialogue, the dialogue of science for example, I call a 'long-term dialogue of culture'. For the student to gain 'knowledge' means to participate in this dialogue. For a student to know what Darwin's theory of evolution means it is not enough to repeat learnt phrases, they need to know the alternative ideas that Darwin was arguing against. They need, for example, also to be taught Larmarcks alternative and wrong theory that changes in an organism over the lifetime are transmitted to offspring. To have knowledge of something it to be able to participate in a debate about it and explain it from different perspectives. The dialogue of biology continues to grow and recent research has found that some changes in an organism over a lifetime are in fact transmitted to offspring through epigenetic mechanisms. Lamarck, it turns out, was not completely wrong and Darwin not completely right. We think we know things in science but in fact we only know the answers to the questions that we have asked. When we learn to ask better questions we might get different and better answers. My point here is that knowledge and dialogue are not really separate. In order to learn knowledge students need to learn how to question and engage in dialogue about knowledge.

Education means inducting students into long-term dialogues of culture such as science and history. This involves teaching 'knowledge' but knowledge should be taught not as fixed final facts but in the form of what has been said in the past in contexts for reasons. The best way to induct children into participation in long-term dialogues of culture is usually, but not always, through dialogue. If children are first stimulated to ask questions, challenge each other and explain things to each other in small groups it then becomes much easier for them to understand the knowledge that they are being taught. If taught in this way they will be able to question and improve knowledge one day thereby contributing to innovation and growth.

While I certainly agree that children should not be left to wander I think that, with the resources of the Internet, there is now much more scope for children taking different learning paths. Parents and society call children into participation in educational dialogues about knowledge, but this is a two-way process. For learning to happen children and students need to be motivated and engaged. Society needs a lot of different kinds of experts and children naturally want to be useful to the society around them. On the one hand we cannot leave students free to study whatever they want but on the other hand we should not tell them exactly what they have to study until they are 16 or 18 even when much of the existing curriculum, in the UK anyway, is not obviously useful either to them or to society. Some kind of dialogue between these extremes is possible. We need to teach children how to behave reasonably with others, how to talk well so that they can learn from others, how to work with numbers and how to read but after these basics are taught and learnt in primary schools it seems to me that there could be many different routes to success in life which should be supported and encouraged.

龚鹏程教授：对话式教育Miniswap，和青少年迷恋手机、网游、电子游戏的具体分际为何，要如何导引青少年？

鲁伯特·维格夫教授：对话式教育是通过对话进行的教育，也是我上面所说的对话式教育Miniswap。这是多年前孔子的教育方式，也是古希腊苏格拉底的教育方式。当"口才 "或说话和听觉在教育中占主导地位时，它更象是一种对话。

我们目前在英国和中国的学校系统几乎没有对话的空间Miniswap。我认为，它仍然被印刷文本所主导。我认为新的通信技术，包括互联网、移动电话，甚至电子游戏，都有可能支持教育中更多的对话。

事实上，我怀疑大多数人已经在互联网上通过社交媒体网站一直在学习很多东西Miniswap。问题被提出，答案被给出，知识被分享。

问题是，这并不总是好的知识Miniswap。社交媒体网站的设计并不是为了支持教育，年轻人也没有被教导如何正确地批评和质疑，以便能够评估知识的质量。如果我们在小学时教孩子们如何一起批判性地思考，他们可能会更好地利用互联网。

像维基百科和百度百科这样的在线开放式合作百科全书，在向每个人免费提供更多知识方面取得了巨大成功Miniswap。

我认为，现在是我们为教育做同样事情的时候了Miniswap。互联网上有许多优秀的教育资源。也许我们可以通过一个在线平台将所有这些资源汇集在一起，并通过人工智能支持互动式教学，不仅为个人，也为团体。

Dialogic education is education through dialogue and also education for dialogue as I described above. This is the way that Confucius taught many years ago and also Socrates in ancient Greece. When 'oracy' or speaking and listening dominated education it was more dialogic. The school system we have at the moment in the UK and in China has little room for dialogue. It is still dominated, I think, by printed texts. I think that new communications technology including the Internet, mobile phones and even video games, has the potential to support more dialogue in education. In fact I suspect that most people are learning many things on the Internet through social media sites all the time already. Questions are asked, answers are given and knowledge is shared. The problem is that this is not always good knowledge. Social media sites have not been designed to support education and young people have not been taught how to criticise and question properly so as to be able to assess the quality of knowledge. If we taught children how to think together critically in primary school they might make better use of the Internet.

Online open collaborative encyclopaedias like Wikipedia and Baidu Baike have been a great success in making more knowledge freely available to everyone. I think it is time what we did the same for education. There are many excellent sources of educational resources on the Internet. Perhaps we could bring all these together through one online platform that also supported, with AI, interactive teaching and learning not just for individuals but also for groups.

龚鹏程教授：对话式教育Miniswap，或您说的技术对话式教育，只能用互联网进行吗？

鲁伯特·维格夫教授：我的教育研究生涯的开端是开发教小学生如何更好地一起交谈的方案Miniswap。广泛的研究表明，这种"对话式 "的方法在提高智力的同时也提高了学习效果。它不需要互联网。

然而，我最初的博士论文，在20世纪90年代，侧重于儿童在计算机周围一起交谈和用计算机学习Miniswap。我认为，通过对话学习和新的数字技术的结合可以很好地发挥作用，但这不一定是必要的。

I began my educational research career developing programmes to teach primary age students how to talk together better. Extensive research shows that this 'dialogic' approach works to increase intelligence as learning. It does not require the Internet. However my original PhD, in the 1990s, focussed on children talking together around computers and learning with computers. I think that the combination of learning through dialogue and new digital technology can be made to work well but it is certainly not necessary.

龚鹏程教授：目前儿童及青少年已因联网或使用手机过度而损害眼睛很严重了Miniswap，因此对话式教育是不是更该强调“听”和“说”，减低“看”的部分？

鲁伯特·维格夫教授：正如我在上面提到的，对话式教育始于口才，即说话和听话Miniswap。令人振奋的是，随着互联网的发展，它正在使新的教学方式成为可能。

播客是一种越来越流行的方式，可以在做其他事情的时候，比如在户外散步或骑自行车的时候，聆听观点和讲座Miniswap。要求学生制作播客也可以作为一种方式，让他们展示自己的理解。

在疫情期间，我所在的大学使用Zoom和其他同步视频平台在网上进行了许多小组讨论会议Miniswap。 这里使用了视觉，但这对听和说来说是次要的。我们可以很容易地只用音频来进行这种在线小组讨论。

我同意您的观点，在教育中增加听和说，减少对视觉的关注是一个好主意Miniswap。

在博士阶段，主要的考试是"答辩 "或面对面的对话，学生通过回答问题证明他们的理解Miniswap。这曾经是英国所有考试的规范，持续了大约200多年。书面考试开始于中国，这种模式影响了整个世界。

也许现在是时候为每个资格考试举行更多的口试了？这将是一个比笔试更好的评估真正理解的方式Miniswap。如果我们这样做，这将提高说话和听讲在整个教育中的地位，因此，我们也许可以减少对孩子们眼睛的伤害！

As I mentioned above dialogic education began with oracy, with speaking and listening. It is exciting to see how, as the Internet develops, it is making new ways of teaching and learning possible. Podcasts are an increasingly popular way of listening to ideas and to lectures while doing other things like walking or cycling outdoors. Asking student to produce podcasts can also be used as a way for them to demonstrate their understanding. During the recent pandemic many small group discussion sessions were run online at my university using zoom and other synchronous video platforms. Vision was used here but it was secondary to the listening and talking. We could easily run such online small group discussions with audio alone.

I agree with you that increasing speaking and listening in education and reducing the focus on vision would be a good idea. At PhD level the main examination is a 'viva' or face to face dialogue in which students demonstrate their understanding by answering questions. This used to be the norm for all examinations in the UK until about 200 years ago. Written examinations began in China and this model has influenced the whole world. Perhaps it is time to hold more spoken viva examinations for every qualification? That would be a better way to assess real understanding than a written examination. If we did so this would increase the status of talking and listening throughout education and as a result, we might do less damage to children's eyes!

龚鹏程，1956年生于台北，台湾师范大学博士，当代著名学者和思想家Miniswap。著作已出版一百五十多本。

办有大学、出版社、杂志社、书院等，并规划城市建设、主题园区等多处Miniswap。讲学于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、台北、巴黎、日本、澳门等地举办过书法展。现为中国孔子博物馆名誉馆长、美国龚鹏程基金会主席。